Thanks for clear explanation.
But let me tell you that due the 2nd approach you have implemented I have made many time big loss because I could not quickly close my loosing option gtt order when there was high volatility in option especially on expiry date.
Hello Team Upstox,
Now a days few brokers came up with feature where we can place a strategy order with pre defined stoploss and target for complete strategy order.
Itâs a very useful feature when we place the strategy order and we need not to keep continuous watch on our positions.
But brokers are having some limitations of like allowing max 4 Legs while deployment of strategy.
Is upstox also planning to bring such wonderful feature with more no of legs allowed like its better to have at least 16 legs.
Below is the attached screenshot of the feature from one of the broker.
Hi @Ashishupstox -
Thanks for your comment. I agree with the first part, and it is something that we recognized would be of interest to customers that focus on placing strategy orders. This strategy-based stoploss/target feature is already in planning, but I donât have an ETA on it yet.
In regard to the second point (up to 16 legs), could you help me with a use case for this? For reference, Iâve been a retail and institutional equity derivatives trader for ~20 years and from my perspective, trading 16 legs at a time seems like a gimmick. On a regular basis, Iâve never needed more than ~4 legs and occasionally used 5/6 legs but those were for complicated âyield captureâ strategies on individual US equities. Of course, the liquidity for individual optionable names on the NSE is far lower than on US exchanges. So, these âyield captureâ strategies likely wouldnât work due to the wide bid-ask spreads. However, just because Iâve never used something, doesnât mean it isnât something others could use.
@mike
Thank you for your feedback.
In regard to second point (up to 16 Legs), what you said is correct. Itâs enough to 4 Legs for a single strategy.
But if we want execute multiple strategies together as a single strategy trade and book the target P&L as combined for all the legs in order then we need multiple legs while placing such order.
Here I am assuming that all the buy legs will be executed first and then sell legs.
Hope this is clear what I want to convey.
@mike
Waiting for your feedback on above comment.
Hi @Ashishupstox -
What you described makes sense and clears it up for me. While technically feasible, my concern is in the execution and customer experience. Letâs say that I want to execute a number of multi-leg strategies (across a few names and expiries). For example, it is earnings season and I want to trade long straddles on 2 companies, an iron butterfly on another company, a long call on the nifty, and a call spread on the bank nifty. So, I have a total of 10 legs and I want to target x amount of profit for today. With a large number of trades, it would definitely be easier to set a single P&L target so you donât have to manage so many moving parts during the dayâŚin theory, it could be a âset it and forget itâ situation. The problem is with liquidity, fills, and margin management.
Once your combined strategy hits the P&L target, execution would begin. Short positions would be closed off first to not increase margin requirements. As those get closed, the market is continuing to move for the other securities. For some, orders would get instant fill and match the mark-to-market values at the time that the target P&L was hit. For others, orders may not get filled instantaneously due to the strikes selected or the underlyingâs options may not have that much ongoing activity. In the end, I can see many situations where the actual P&L that is realized is at least a little different than the target P&L (slippage, liquidity, etc.). Even if some of the time it works out well, there will definitely be times when it wonât â especially during times of market volatility â and it will be a huge customer dissatisfier.
There are a number of ways around this, but they are all bespoke and could include adding in a âslippageâ factor that you are ok with (target P&L +/- %), forecasting market impact / estimating closure price, etc. With something as custom as this, I would recommend using the UpLink API which would allow you to build out your own ruleset / trade execution logic.
@mike
Thanks for your detailed feedback.
Your concern about placing strategies over multiple companies where volatility canât be there all the time is very much correct one.
But I wanted this only for the index like nifty, bank nifty, etc where there will be enough liquidity.
So can it be possible to rollout atleast for index ?
My concern is even though you or others may enter into index strikes that are highly liquid, there will definitely be users that place orders that are out-of-the-money. Even the Nifty will have strikes that have wide bid/ask spreads. We would need to think about how to restrict certain contracts which could reduce the effectiveness of such a product for many customers. In addition, there is always the chance that the contracts were initially liquid but large price movements reduce the liquidity such that you arenât getting a matching target.
While you may be ok with getting a realized âtotal strategyâ P&L that is reasonably close to the target P&L, I guarantee others wonât be or wonât understand why it isnât possible to get the exact target. I know this because we frequently hear from customers about why certain orders (even single legs) werenât filled correctly despite the issue being something like a price gap up/down.
In addition, this feature would likely only be used by a small number of traders. For traders that donât use this, there will be additional UI complexity (albeit small) that we will need to address as it will make the experience slightly worse for the vast majority of traders. For example, GTT is a fairly commonly used feature but by adding it, we needed to add additional complexity to the order form. There are traders that donât use this (or donât want this) and they feel that their in-app experience is worse because of it. We have to balance the benefits/drawbacks across customers.
If we start to see a large number of requests for increases in strategy legs, then perhaps we could revisit and put it into our backlog.
@mike
Thanks for your detailed reply. Hope you will check the feasibility and do best.
Hello Team Upstox,
As I came to know from Mike that team is already working on bringing strategy order placement with pre defined target and stoploss.
Will it be better if we have trailing stoploss feature in this strategy order ?
Hello Team Upstox,
Your feature of placing instant order from option chart is just useless. Itâs take 3-4 seconds to execute order. By this time price will much long than we wish to get.
So better immediately improve this feature or remove it.
@Ashishupstox - Can you please provide more context for this? For example, what contracts are you attempting to trade (ex: is this an ATM close expiry Nifty call or something less liquid).
This I was trying for ITM strikes of Bank Nifty. And also some close OTM strikes.
The value I saw on strike.price chart on web and the value of same strike I saw in option chain of mobile app for same trikes was totally different.
Mobile.app price was more accurate.
Also When I tried to take quick trade button on option strike price chart, my orders were placed by 3-4 seconds delay.
Hi @Ashishupstox ,
Can you please share your UCC ID with us? We would like to understand this in detail over a phone call.
@Vaibhav_Naik
Please find ucc id as below:
76AEMZ
Thank you for sharing your UCC ID with us, @Ashishupstox A Upstox representative will reach out to you soon.
Hello Team Upstox,
Can anyone give me single good reason why kill switch waiting time is increased from 12hr to 24 hrs.
Means I use kill switch today at 1pm the tommoro I canât trade for morning session.
What the logic.
Well done upstox. It seems that you are working against the user intrest.
Hi @Ashishupstox ,
The idea behind a kill switch is to ensure youâre not revenge trading or trading based out of emotions. The reason we changed the duration from 12-24 hours is because sometimes people would disable trading post market hours and re-enable it again the next morning. This beats the purpose of having a kill switch. So to ensure you donât get tempted to trade again out of emotions, weâve increased the time limit to 24 hours.
We hope this helps. If you require any other assistance please reach us here.
@Vaibhav_Naik
I am not sure with which formula you calculated that revenge trading can be avoided only after 24 Hrs and not after 12 Hrs.
The revenge trading is mostly done on same date and not on next day.
Generally kill switch is used by user during market hrs at Max loss or gain, and not post market hrs.
So when user use kill switch during market hrs, then in both 12 hrs and 24 hrs user can enable trading for next day. Then why do you think here of 24 hrs only.
Actually 24 hrs kill switch have adverse effect on psychology.
Let say at 2pm user want to use the kill switch after making good amount of profit, but due to known fact that it wonât allow him to trade next day morning he wonât go for kill switch and there is a chance of overtrading here which will earn more for upstox.
I am expecting that due to this phychologye only upstox have change it from 12 hrs to 24 hrs.
Hello Team Upstox,
Do you have any feedback on above comment?
